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"That those were Reagan and Bush years doesn't bother you at all, and that those Republican Administrations didn't take any significant action to stop them doesn't hit your radar screen."

And I'm the partisan one?  Jeez.

First off, let's not forget that we're talking about the DPRK.  Lying, sneaking, backing out of treaties, blackmailing and threats are what they're all about.  On some level it is inevitable that they would someday get nuclear weapons.

link:  http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/northkorea/nuclear.html

"On Dec. 12, 1985, Pyongyang signed the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons Treaty."

"North and South Korea signed the Joint Declaration on the Denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula later that year. Both sides promised, 'not to test, manufacture, produce, receive, possess, store, deploy or use nuclear weapons.'  They also agreed not to possess nuclear reprocessing and uranium enrichment facilities."

"North Korea signed the IAEA safeguards agreement on Jan. 30, 1992, and ratified it four months later."

Since you appear to think Clinton "took significant action" I have to assume you define this as "getting the DPRK to sign treaties they don't intend to obey."  Based on the quotes above, you can see that Reagan and Bush got them to sign lots and lots of shit, and at no point did they have to build any reactors for them in order to do it.  The closest they came, was agreeing to let the Russians help them, which they'd been doing without our permission for years anyway.

Also noteworthy:  "[The DPRK] asked for permission to receive assistance from the Soviets in the construction of four light water reactors to replace the graphite facilities at Yongbyon."

You suggest that graphite reactors are better for the production of weapons grade plutonium than light water reactors.  All the sources I have read agree with this in principle...  However it is odd that the DRPK would request to convert over to light water reactors.  It becomes less odd when one reads this link.  The relevant quote:  “[W]hile light water reactors are not an ideal method for nuclear proliferation, they're an ideal method for HIDING nuclear proliferation, if you want the bomb but do not want to raise alarm bells.”  So what do we have?  We have the DPRK looking to replace older, less reliable, less capable reactors with modern, politcally correct models.  The fact that they're requesting it means it's in their interests.  It's not like Bill Clinton bamboozled them with some LWRs and they were like “herro?  Wait a meenit heah!  Dees reactah not make-uh prutonium!”  Clinton basically gave them what they wanted.

To be fair, though, the LWRs Clinton promised have not been built.  While he did cave in, he did it in typically Clintonian fashion, and ultimately gave them nothing, besides a whole lot of fuel oil, grain, etc.

“Research reactors = DPRK scientists trying to figure out the best hardware configurations to do gaseous diffusion on uranium fuel rods.“

Urk?  Gaseous diffusion is used to increase the concentration of U235 before the fuel rods are assembled.  The element used in nuclear weapons is plutonium, not uranium.  It's unclear to me what method the DPRK used to obtain the plutonium needed to create weapons, but it seems that it would have to be from Russian supplied sources.

“Again, that there were any benefits at all to the 1994 agreement, you absolutely refuse to acknowledge.”

Actually I that's true.  Seems to me like we spent a bunch of time and money on it, and it got us nothing at all.  They have nukes, we gave them lots of oil, not much accomplished.  I had thought, mistakenly, that the LWRs Clinton agreed to give them were actually running, and useful to their construction of nuclear weapons.  I still think he was wrong to agree to build the LWRs, unless he really intended not to follow through, and instead to play DPRK-like games with the DPRK.  If that's what his plan was, it's actually quite good.

posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 3:44 PM

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# re: Ian Forces Me to Resarch... 2/22/2005 5:02 PM ian, leftist from 199.141.41.118
know i said i wouldnt post anymore but yaaay, we're almost in agreement, or at least as close as will ever be possible. glad to see you moved from "clinton helped them build nuclear weapons" to "[clinton] gave them nothing, besides a whole lot of fuel oil, grain, etc"

re: russian sources and uranium: plutonium is typically derived from uranium. that's why LWRs vs. Graphite is important; graphite breeder reactors tend to cook off plutonium isotopes faster and in greater quantity than LWRs.

gas diffusion: used to seperate isotopes; is done to enrich uranium fuel as you state but also to suck out the plutonium isotopes from spent fuel once they've been burning in a breeder reactor for a while. LWRs make it harder to get anything meaningful (ie, plutonium) out.

in 89 when DPRK shutdown their reactors, analysts estimated that if they reprocessed all their fuel rods, they'd pull about 14 kilograms of plutonium out, which is enough for 2 nuclear weapons.

your argument that DPRK's older reactors were "less reliable and less capable" is inaccurate, imo. less reliable and less capable of generating electricity, yes, but more capable of creating nuclear byproducts that you skim to make weapons-grade plutonium.

we can debate the merits of lwrs vs. not giving lwrs and whether or not we should've given them the stick instead of offering them a carrot, but either way, i dont think it's fair to say that clinton advanced the state of DPRK nuclear weapons development.


# re: Ian Forces Me to Resarch... 9/22/2005 12:34 AM ghc, leftist from 216.17.154.88
These posts seem to be a nice thing to rehash, considering the Bush administration's about to spend a bunch of time and money in getting DPRK anohter LWR in exchange for their promising to dismantle their nuclear program and (re)sign the NNPT. Yeah, right.

Thanks again for the free nuclear reactor! - KJI

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