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Ian has officially joined the dark side.  His response to my previous post about Bill Clinton crosses the line from legitimate if faggy complaint, right over to gross liberal bias.  I'll quote, and to register my displeasure, I'm bringing out the DeepPink.

The North Korean nuclear program began in the mid-1960s. While it is conceivable that "Bill Clinton gave them [their] nuclear technology", he was, after all, in his early teens at the time, and his skills at designing and building nuclear fission reactors might have been a little remedial back then.

How many levels of dishnonesty were brought to bear in order to make this paragraph work?

First off, there's the point that the DPRK begain their nuclear program in the mid sixties.  That is correct.  They were building reactors in the early sixties and on.  But here's a helpful site to look at.  And here's a helpful quote:  “September 1989 : US Secretary of State James A. Baker and Soviet Foreign Minister Eduard A. Shevardnadze meet to discuss suspicions that North Korea has a nuclear weapons program. During the meeting, Baker expresses concern about North Korea’s research reactor, as well as the fact that it has not signed the IAEA safeguards agreement.”  So in 1989, there's suspicion that the DPRK wants to build nuclear weapons.  And that's what we're talking about here...  Their recent announcement that they have nuclear weapons.  So, who cares when they started building research reactors?  Weapon development wasn't a concern, much less a reality, until 1989.

The next DeepPink trick attempted is adding a word to a quote of mine, to subtlely change my meaning.  I said “Bill Clinton gave them nuclear technology.”  Which he did.  Ian changed it to say “Bill Clinton gave them [their] nuclear technology,” which, as you will note changes the meaning, as well as the color of this statement.  Bill Clinton did give the DPRK nuclear technology.  Or, at least, he oversaw the government that gave them the technology, and was directly responsible for approving that transfer.  By adding the word “their” you try to make it sound like I'm suggesting that Bill Clinton gave them the whole of their technology.  Clearly he didn't.  Clearly the Russians gave much more.  But then again, clearly I didn't say that, otherwise you wouldn't have had to insert the word.

It's a sad day for heterosexuality folks.

posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 12:26 PM

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# re: Ian Fucks Up... 2/18/2005 2:00 PM ian, leftist from 24.9.54.48

I just wrote a response to this already and your blog no likey. So suffice to summarize like this:

1. You're gay.

2. See above.

3. You wrote: "Bill Clinton gave them nuclear technology. No reason. Just thought they could use it."

That suggests, to anyone familiar with the English language, that Bill Clinton came along and said "gee whiz, DPRK, you don't have nuclear reactors!??! Here, have some on us!"

That was the intent of your phrasing, to suggest that North Korea hadn't been working on shit til traitorous Clinton came along and gave them a nuclear weapons program. I pointed out this was plainly untrue. Which it is.

4. Why you dig yourself deeper into the hole bringing up Baker is beyond me. The CIA first started to think that DPRK is working towards nukes in the early 80s. Check the NSA archives. Those are Reagan-years, my friend, your hero. Baker, smart man that is he, suggests that we start multilateral talks with DPRK, China, South Korea, Japan, etc, to reign DPRK in. Who nixes the idea? Paul Wolfowitz! HAHAH, the irony.

So, can you point out the Reagan and Bush I policies that stopped DPRK dead-in-their-tracks during the 80s and early 90s?

No, cause your premise is that all responsibility is, of course, Bill Clinton's! Like all other problems in the world of angry conservatives, DPRK's nuke program sprang magically to life in January of 1993, at the exact moment that Bill Clinton was sworn in!

5. Gay, dude, very gay.

6. Let me demonstrate how gay your argument is: "Bechtel, after Iraq had already gassed thousands of Kurds, came along and just gave Iraq chemical weapons plants. No reason. Just thought they could use them, That's the sort of visionary company that Bechtel is".

See how I've cherrypicked stupid bullshit there, and made a dumb statement out of partial facts to suit an agenda? See how it's a set of sentences of half-truths?

You make arguments that are structurally IDENTICAL to the sort of specious crap that GNN makes. That, sir, is the true gay.


# re: Ian Fucks Up... 2/22/2005 10:48 AM Jack from 24.9.81.240
It makes me sad that I have to fight just to be permitted to mean what I meant, rather than whatever is convenient for hippies to think I mean.

That suggests, to anyone familiar with the English language, that Bill Clinton came along and said "gee whiz, DPRK, you don't have nuclear reactors!??! Here, have some on us!"

It does? To me it suggests that he gave them nuclear technology. If I said "Hussain gave me cash for a pizza" does that mean I never had cash before? Does it mean I've never had a pizza? Or does it mean what it says, no more and no less? It says Hussain (who) did something (gave) somebody (me) something (cash) for some reason (a pizza). It doesn't have an XML packet hidden in the header that contains my bank account information. It doesn't have some sort of transaction log implied in a signature about how much cash Hussain gave me in the past.

Now, I know that you know all of this, otherwise you wouldn't have felt the need to insert words into my quotes that subtlely twist the meaning in your favor. That's Mike Moore shit, and it genuinely hurts me personally that you'd do that. That's really why I didn't respond to this before, because I felt that if something about what I'm saying was making you act like Mike Moore, than I'd rather shut up and let you think I'm wrong than have to watch you be Mike Moore some more.

"Like all other problems in the world of angry conservatives, DPRK's nuke program sprang magically to life in January of 1993, at the exact moment that Bill Clinton was sworn in!"

I guess I must have said this too, somewhere, when I wasn't looking. Probably it was off camera, but the way you've cut all the footage together, I MUST have said it. Thanks Mike. You're looking awful skinny these days, Mike.

Come on dude. What did I say? I said Bill Clinton gave them nuclear technology. And he did. In the interest of preventing the DPRK from having nuclear weapons, how exactly does giving them nuclear technology fit in? Bilateral talks... Multilateral talks... No talks... Ok... It's different ways of trying to push the DPRK in a certain direction, preferrably away from nuclear weapons. How the HELL does GIVING them nuclear technology compare?

It's like you've got a kid, and he's been asking around about pot a lot. You don't want him getting started with pot. Uncle Baker thinks signing him up for after school sports will be a good plan. Aunt Wolfowitz disagrees, and thinks he should just be locked in his room. So gropey uncle Clinton signs him up for a glassblowing class, and he comes home with a bong.

You want to do everything in your power to obfuscate this fact. You want to spend time distorting the arguments to look more cartoonish and silly. You want to obsess over the tactical flaws in various conservative's plans. You want to do everything you can besides realize that Clinton HELPED THEM get nuclear weapons. Wolfowitz and Baker tried to stop them. Perhaps they were incompetent, and their efforts did nothing at all. At least they didn't HELP.

The question I posed is simple: How is it that Bill Clinton could HELP the lunatics in the DPRK get nuclear technology, and nobody even mentions it? I'm not saying it's the worst thing in the world, with Russia and China in the picture, it was only a matter of time. But how is it that Clinton is favorably remembered, how is Madeline Alright going around blaming shit on GWB, when Clinton's genius plan was to GIVE them nuclear technology?

# re: Ian Fucks Up... 2/22/2005 1:39 PM ian, leftist from 199.141.41.118

I can tell you're taking things personally so I'll stop challenging you on it. My final points though are these:

North Korea started working towards nuclear weapons in the early 80s. That's a fact, and we were aware of it at the time.

In 1989, Jane's reported that DPRK could have a nuclear weapon within 5 years.

That those were Reagan and Bush years doesn't bother you at all, and that those Republican Administrations didn't take any significant action to stop them doesn't hit your radar screen. It's perfectly understandable to you that they didn't.

Your argument continues to center on this whole concept of "Clinton HELPED THEM get nuclear weapons". I disagree.

In 1994, Clinton gets the North Koreans to give up their graphite reactors, *WHICH THE NORTH KOREANS ALREADY HAVE BUILT AND ARE USING*, in exchange for light-water reactors. Like, please, for me, read that sentence again. THEY ALREADY HAD GRAPHITE REACTORS.

Homegrown graphite reactors are inherently more suited for the tasks of creating plutonium and uranium enrichment than are the deliberately-hobbled and Western-designed light-water reactors we provided, which are better for generating electricity but not so good for reprocessing of spent-fuel rods.

Regarding how DPRK was building research reactors in the 80s, your previous response posed the question of "Who cares when the DPRK started building research reactors?". The answer to that question is: Everyone who didn't want DPRK to have nuclear weapons.

Research reactors are not reactors meant to research "How to build a better puppy dog", or "How to grow the perfect hot-house orchid". Research reactors = DPRK scientists trying to figure out the best hardware configurations to do gaseous diffusion on uranium fuel rods.

You deliberately ignore these points time and time again.

Out of the 1994 agreement, Clinton got the DPRK to agree to IAEA monitoring, overseeing the dismantling of the graphite reactors, securing the spent fuel rods, etc. The 1994 agreement also agrees to provide DPRK conventional heating oil to make up for the lack of electricity that they'll have while we're taking apart their graphite reactors and while the light-water reactors are being constructed. It further provided humanitarian assistance to keep their North Koreans from starving to death.

Again, that there were any benefits at all to the 1994 agreement, you absolutely refuse to acknowledge. That the DPRK was well along the path to nuclear weapons before Clinton came into the picture, you refuse to acknowledge.

To you, valiant Reagan and Bush tried mightily to keep DPRK from getting a gun, and Clinton just came along and gave them one cause he's a jerk and hates America. In reality, Bush and Reagan protested a little about DPRK getting a gun, and Clinton, realizing they already had gotten themselves a TEC-9, convinced them to trade it in for a .22 and some fritos.

But whatever. You don't want to see that, and I'm tired of trying to demonstrate it to you and being called a propagandist for explaining demonstrated and undisputed history.

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